"Every BODY is different and that's ok!" with author Jayneen Sanders

Jen Lansink: Last week, we spoke with Eli Harwood, the attachment nerd about sexual abuse and trauma. This week we are speaking with Jayneen Sanders and author and publisher of books designed to help families and educators address the issue of abuse and body awareness. It's perfect timing. In today's episode we talk about everything from body safety and the words to use when asking for permission from our kids. For example, I love it when Jayneen and gave me an example of when an aunt or grandmother or anyone really walks up to your child and instead of just assuming they want to give you a hug you can say how would you like me to greet you today? And it might be a fist bump, it might be a high five, it might be anything. It just might be anything so I just thought that was a really good example of today's episode is Jayneen gives us a lot of really tangible ways to work with our children and strangers and educators etc. We also talk about respect for self and others. Her amazing new book called Included, and also how her daughter Isabel was experiences with a boy named Luca have helped to shape much of Janie's forward motion within our community of special needs. There's a lot of hope in this world. And we as parents set the stage for what is and what isn't accepted in our homes and schools. So I hope you take away some phrases that will help you to change our world. I hope you, enjoy and let me know what you think. I am with Jayneen Sanders, also known as Jay-Dale. She is an experienced early years educator, author, publisher and blogger Jayneen writes children's books on body safety, consent, gender equality, respectful relationships, and social and emotional intelligence. She believes empowering children from an early age makes her empowered teenagers and adults. Jayneen is lead author for the children's literacy series engage literacy published by Capstone and has written over 130 titles for that series thans insane. Jayneen is most importantly a mother of three daughters and has always advocated for their empowerment. Her ongoing passion for the safety and empowerment of children continues today with new manuscripts and free to download resources always in the wings. Jayneens work can be found at https://e2epublishing.info/ and on Amazon. Jayneen thank you so very much for joining us today. I'm really excited to talk about your books and everything that you're doing to open people's eyes to body safety and awareness. 

Jayneen Sanders: Oh, thank you so much for having me, Jen. Very happy to be here. 

JL: Oh, well thank you. It took us long enough. I kind of dropped the ball a couple of times, you guys. So tell us where you are right now. You're in Australia.

JS: Yes, I'm in Australia. We live just outside of Melbourne about an hour out. So my husband and I work together and we run a small publishing company.

JL: Well, let's talk about your early education experience. I think it's always cool to find out how people got to where they are and what influenced them along that road. So will you talk with us a little bit about how you got into writing and publishing from the early education years? 

JS: Well, I've always been a reader and I love that and I was trained as a teacher and I worked with kids and I think, I don't know, writing just seemed a natural progress. So when I came to Melbourne, I'm actually from Queensland, which is up the north of Australia and I came to Melbourne as a young woman, I was about 24 and I got into educational publishing. So I became an editor. And I you know, I read lots of books with that and I worked with that. That was really great. And then my husband and I who had met at that time, we went across to Japan, and we worked over there for three and a half years and my first daughter was born there. She's a social worker and a writer. Anyway, when we got back having a child I thought like I really need to work from home. So I started then writing stories and becoming published because of my connections with publishing. And yeah, so it all sort of started from there. And then probably about 12 years ago when we actually had three daughters by then I went to the children's school and said you know you guys, are you teaching body safety, are you because this is really important. I'm not a survivor of sexual abuse. But you know, you're teaching body safety education, and everybody felt really uncomfortable and just didn't want to talk about it. So I went home and I said to my husband, I'm going to use my skills as a writer and I write a book. So then people will take note of this very important issue. And so I wrote some secret should never be kept. And then we tried to get someone to publish it. We tried three publishers. Nobody wanted to publish it. So that's when we started our own small publishing company so we could publish it ourselves. Yeah.

JL: Okay. And so the number one reason people didn't want to publish it was... I'm assuming I understood I know. But

JS: yeah, it was because it was about preventing sexual abuse of children in a very age appropriate, beautifully illustrated way. You're nothing scary. In fact, that book, if you or your child has never been abused. It's just another story and they will have a lot of empathy. For the little boy. But if your child has been abused, you will probably... in fact there's um some state governments in Australia who used that with social workers that book specifically when they were the children who they believe may have been sexually abused, to kind of get them over the line and to get a disclosure. 

JL: yeah, I read quite a few of your books and I think I wrote you in the email. I want to buy these for everybody like for the schools. Because I think in the right setting, it's so empowering to give children a voice whether or not they're somewhat verbal ish like Teal or if they are able to talk about it. Having a story helps them put words to what they're feeling.

JS: But you know, the biggest block to all of this is adults. They fear this topic, and they don't understand that their fear is actually putting children totally at risk. Like it's, it's extraordinary. How, you know, we know one in five girls, one and a boys are sexually abused before 18. And that's only the reported cases. So when a parent or teacher says oh, I don't think I want to teach that. It doesn't seem like they're actually putting them at risk. Because when we teach body safety, it's very age appropriate. You know, it's all about empowerment, like I can say no or, you know, I have a safety network I can talk to or I understand when I have early warning signs and what to do about it. It's all age appropriate. I mean, when we teach water safety, when we teach roadside, we don't show them graphic images. So it's the same as when we teach about your safety. There is nothing graphic, there's nothing talking about the actual act of sexual abuse, but yet time and time again, you know, schools will not teach these parents will not teach. And, you know, those perpetrators just go on and on and keep on abusing our children.

JL: Yeah, it's one of those things where you, I guess my theory is, I don't ever want to look back and say I didn't teach her and now look where we're at. But if we talk about it, and we're open about it, you know, saying I think I read it in your book, and I've heard Eli Harwood talk about the attachment nerd as well. How under your swimming suit is not an okay place for people to touch. That's, that's very tangible, for for children. It's very tangible. They understand this is my swimming suit, and I shouldn't be touched under my swim suit, you know, and there's...

JS: And what to do if they are touched. So, we know that, you know, everybody if there's any kind of sexual assault, may freeze. They may not get to do anything, but the default for children is, go tell someone you trust. So therefore, as adults, we need to educate ourselves on this topic. So we believe the child. I mean, you imagine the courage to say, oh, no, uncle he touched my vagina, which we should be using the correct name and the courage to do that, and then have someone turn around that's ridiculous. He would never do that. Like they're never going to tell again. So we need to educate ourselves to say okay, what are the what is it? What does grooming look like? What are all these things that are happening and then we will believe a child as they do disclose to it. It's just so important. I can't express enough how important is education? It's the most important thing because, you know, people who are survivers say to me constantly they had known from that very first touch that it was wrong. Their lives would be completely different, completely different than some people would still live in. So you know, I think age appropriate simple body safety education, and I have a free poster. It's called My buddy safety rules, and it's in 17 to 20 languages. I'm not sure how many now and it's free to download. So you imagine if you have that post with your child's body safety rules on the refrigerator in your house, and a perpetrator comes in? Well, they're gonna go okay, that kid is learning body safety, uh-oh that kid is educated as hell uh-oh, that kid's not going to be on my radar. And so your child is going to be a lot safer for your child and so it's just drives me nuts.

JL: I'm sure it does. Because you know, you were saying before we started recording that you said 2.2 times more likely a child with special needs. So one in eight girls and or one in five girls and one in boys that are near neurologically typical, will be in some sort of a sexually traumatic situation. Because all of it's not the same, right? Not everyone is abused or traumatized the same way but it still exists. And then I think it's makes me sad. So 2.2 times. More likely, Oh goodness Yeah. Because if it's 20% I mean, it's the girl yeah. 20% If it's a girl, and then two point Yeah, it's almost 50% and we're doing our math right.

JS:  Yeah and that just what we know of. So if you know check carefully who is caring for your child, you check very carefully and go through what you expected them to go through like, Okay, we teach body safety and this is what it means. Yeah. When you interact with my child, you need to always ask for consent and maybe they're nonverbal, but I don't really care. You still ask for consent. And they may show you or I will show you if they are saying it's okay. You always check in with them. Oh, is this okay? Are you still okay with this? This is the language you need to use with my child. If you are and you know, tell them you're onto it, you know we teach body safety were doing it. So ensure that your carers and your teachers are using this kind of language with your child. 

JL: Right? Well, and it's something just so simple of you know, giving a hug if you don't want to give a hug, it's okay. If you say no, if you don't want to give someone a kiss, it's okay like Grandma, you don't have to give Grandma a kiss. And I teach that I'm very open. With Teal and all of our family and teachers about that. But we haven't ever talked about what you know. I'm really sad. I mean, my daughter is almost seven and I'm like, Good golly.

JS: That's okay. But you need to you know, when you have family and friends and ages they need to ask you, yes. How would you like me? To greet you today? And you know, she may be able to show an elbow bump or she may put her hands up for a hug, but ask her give her that autonomy. When so much autonomy is taken away from her particularly children with special needs like autonomy and taken away. So ask check in or be respectful of their space and their body and you know, this is really, really important. And anyone who is not then they're not the right care of your child. They're absolutely not the right care. And I'm really sorry to say this gently, but perpetrators will go where the loopholes are, and perpetrators will go where there's vulnerability and perpetrators will go where there's fear, and an adult's path because they're very manipulative, and they can work it out. And so, and that's another thing too. I'll tell you another statistic. If you are a single parent, your child is 22 times more likely to be sexually abused. Because perpetrators will choose single moms who are so busy and you know, they've got three kids and that just snowed under, they're trying to work and they will like, look, I'm going to be there to help you. I'm the really friendly person. They will target single moms.

JL: I never thought about that. Okay, you guys if you're listening and you know someone that's single that has kids, you got to make sure they listen to this. Like this isn't just about children with special needs, right? I want to talk with you about inclusion and what you're doing because a lot of your books are about that. Whether it's skin color or wheelchair or walker or a diagnosis. It's about inclusion. But also I want this whole podcast to be inclusive, you know?

JS: Yeah. But look I think parents are it's a great opportunity. So you've got parents who have kids with special needs. So please please ask your teachers ask your carers, you know, what are you doing? Have you do you know about body safety? You know, that consent? Oh, I'm gonna give you some information on this because this is what I'm teaching my child right now and I would like you to be part of this and onboard with us about this and that way he can or she will know or he will know as they grow older, what to expect of other carers when I may not be there. So you know, if a carer just pushes their arm around and doesn't ask for consent at all, they can verbally if they're verbal, say hey, you need to ask for my consent. So this is empowering a child which is empowering your teenager this is  empowering them as an adult when you may not be there. So I just would really like to ask people to educate themselves and then make sure that the carers and the people who are with their children are also on board and are educated around body safety and consent particularly the language of consent.

JL: When I'm thinking as you're talking it's it would be very easy for me to put on Teal's talking board. Please ask for my consent. She knows where no is and yes it is. But that's a different instead of just saying no, no, no, I like that. Please ask for my consent. We've done that a lot with her friends at school who just come up and pat her head or come up and just give her a hug. Her aid at school is very good at saying no, you guys have to ask. And Teal is the same age but I need to empower Teal because like what you just said we're not always going to be with her. 

JS: No, you're not and you know, she might go to swimming classes and you know, and swimming classes, their bodies are handled a lot. So you need to say 'can I lift you into the water?' and you know she can nod and on so, 'is everything okay?' 'Can I move your arm now?' like constantly checking in constantly asking. And I as I said knowing they're not verbal, there may be a nod or some kind of indication or even just rigid body might mean no. So they I can't emphasize enough how much to ask and checking with with your child as they are doing activities and you know, they may be doing some kind of sport activity where they need to be lifted into a chair or whatever. So these coaches and people who are doing the sport activities with them, need to be respectful and mindful as well.

JL: Absolutely. With every child, not just a child with special needs. Exactly.

JS: Yeah. Hence why you know, I do the work I do. And try to educate my books or put educating the child I do have one for parents, school buddies education, which is great, but mostly my books are for children, but you know they read them with adults. So you know, they are books for adults too absolutely, reading, discussing that book together. Therefore, the parent is also gaining the knowledge about how to interact with that child, what the child will expect of them. However, the parents still need to educate themselves about grooming and about the statistics and about to what to look out for if a child is being sexually abused, like the kinds of things that might indicate that there's something going on for them. The red flags. 

JL: What would be some of those red flags

JS: for probably a neurotypical kind of kid it would be a sore tummy doesn't want to go to school doesn't want to stay at uncle's house gets really angry a lot or gets very sad is out of character. They're not the usual happy self around that person trying to make themselves smaller or more that they're angry and run away just things within in their body for they just don't want to go and so if your child says no, I don't want to go. Don't force them. Don't make them go because there's something going on why you had to ask why. Then there's more obvious ones like, you know, there might be a discharge or smelly or wetting the bed again and wetting themselves at school or wetting themselves where they need to go to somebody's house. They might not want you to dress them or come into their bedroom. Yeah,

JL: yeah, it's interesting because I still at times, you know, we'll clean Teal sometimes we have accidents. And I always check you know, very clearly every area every orifice just because and some people might think I'm weird to do that, but it's I feel like it's my job as a mom just to make sure that everything is fine. But I also will then identify body parts while we're talking about like, okay, Mama's just gonna look at your anus, you know, using that word. Yeah, and you know what that is? That's a really good point. And I don't do that. I don't take that next step. So thank you for that. I will dramatically change my communication because you know, Teal trusts me explicitly and, but at the same time, that's why I have to build that with someone you trust. So 

JS: And it's also an expectation that adults when they work with her when they interact with her, they will also be checking in and asking if it's okay. Because she trusts you, and she'll have that kind of innocence of trusting you so then you go away for a couple of days and a new person comes in. She's also trusting that person, because you know, adults are trustworthy, you're totally right. So, so therefore, instead of putting fear into her about adults, you need to make sure you're modeling the same kind of language that she will then expect of other adults to interact with her and particularly her body and her mouth is a private part as well. So when you were cleaning her teeth, you have to if you need to clean her teeth, you can you please open your mouth and it's okay if I clean your teeth right now and, and constantly having, that checkin with her.

JL: Really good information for me. I'm like oh, crap. I thought I was doing so well. Okay, good. All right. So let's transition a little bit into some of your other books. What? Which ones are you most excited about? Which ones were hardest to write? I'd love to get some insight from you. 

JS: Well, I'm very excited about my latest book, which is...

JL: Included. Yes, that's actually why I reached out to you originally.

JS: Yes, it is because Included, came about because my youngest daughter Isabel, she works with children with disability, she implements what the physio askes her to do. She's not a physio, but she will. It's called Kids Pro, so she will do like walking on beds or throwing beanbags or doing different things to help mobilize the children. So that's her job. But she's also just started her Master's of OT, so she's going to be an occupational therapist. She was telling me about the kids when she takes them to the playground and how other kids don't actually interact with them and play with them. And I was so sad. I was really sad because she said, you know, the little boy was sitting there and nobody was actually interacting. And it made me really sad. So I decided to go in this like I often do, and I've chosen six kids with six disabilities. So we have autism, hearing disability and cerebral palsy, Down syndrome, limb difference, ADHD. I know that's not everybody, but it's covered a few. And so I introduced each child and this book really is for neurotypical kids to know how to include everybody into their play. And often it's as simple as would you like to play? It's as simple as that, but understanding a little bit about their disability but not I don't go there too much. And then just simply encouraging them to ask them to play and how to include them in their lives in their play. So that's what that books about.

JL: Yeah, you did a really good job if I do say so myself.

JS: But have you read the book? 

JL: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I read that one. For sure. I think that was probably the first one that I read and I'll give really good descriptions of the children. And then I love how you then just talk about what their standard like they like to play with balls and this one likes to dance and that one loves music. And I mean, and it's just like, oh look, and then I really enjoy how then you have the prompting questions, which is a common theme for your books, where there's a question for the adults to ask the child that you ask them. What do you like to play with? Or what music do you like to listen to? And so you're creating this, we're equal. We're all the same. 

JS: Yeah, I mean, that's exactly right. Instead of bringing them into the conversation, bringing their you know, their feelings or their experiences into the conversation so that they feel part of that.

JL: You know, you talk about the playground. Do you know that is one of the hardest places for parents to take children with special needs? One because they aren't inclusive. There's even... at our playground around here. There's a ton of wood bark and things that kids can't like Teal used to walk around her knees until November. I mean, she couldn't walk around and all of those, the wood bark so one that was just hard physically taking her there, but then seeing children much younger than her doing things, and then not including her or staring or just it's heartbreaking for so many of us as parents. It's just heartbreaking. 

JS: Hence why I wrote that book because it really is a book for all children. And there's eight lesson plans to go with that. So you can take this book with the eight lessons as just this book and read it in the classroom. And the whole attitude in the classroom will probably change towards your child with special needs. I mean Teal's should teachers should read this book. I mean, I know she's included I know your teacher would probably be pretty good. But what about all the other classes they could read? This book too. So they have some kind of understanding? Kids with a disability just like kids everywhere. They have things they love, they have things that are good, they have things they need to work on. There's no difference in a way it's just we're all different, but it's just part of the whole spectrum of life. I'm really proud of that book, and I think it needs to get out there a little bit more than it is.  Because I'm kind of quite known for the body safety area, which is great and consent, but I also feel very passionately about that, hence why I think I will be working on some other things, with special needs as well. And the other book that I love is Hope. 

JL: I haven't read this one

JS: Well, it's the kids in domestic violence. Okay. So it's about a mom and a child in domestic violence where the father is quite violent, and how for children not to blame themselves and what they can do in order to keep safe. So that was a really tricky one too. But I worked with to two organizations that deal with domestic violence because we lose one woman a week in Australia, with our small population to domestic violence. One woman a week. So I think there's probably in the first 24 weeks there's been 24 deaths of women in Australia. Domestic violence is very, very huge here. Shocking. And people forget about the children, the children who are there cowering in the corner who see it or who think that they've done something wrong, like why is dad so angry, what have I done? So I'm very proud of that book as well and it has a little safety plan in the back that we developed. It's very important for domestic violence shelter. People who work in that area,

JL: You're picking some very tough concepts. Jayneen I mean, seriously, exactly. It's very good. It's very good. And the visuals are really beautiful. The children are approachable and it's a it's all all of the illustrations are just really engaging and so it doesn't feel like you're reading a horribly heavy book. 

JS: No, no, thank you. 

JL: One of the things that I've been thinking about a lot is the word inclusion. And I actually the episode that we we launched today or yesterday is with Inclusion Films with Joey Travolta and he has a company called Inclusion Films and I mentioned that I think the word inclusion is overused. I think people use it, but they don't know how to implement it. And what's really nice about your books, especially the book you mentioned Included is it gives the children and truthfully we need to write one for parents to approach parents that have children with special needs and how they can help them feel included. Because we get stigmatized a lot just because we have a child with special needs. We get excluded because parents don't know how to ask. They don't know how to talk about it. They don't they're uncomfortable. Never thought about that until right now and that needs to be a book for adults. But what you've done in that in the book Included is given the children tangible ways to just do it and hopefully, as they get older and I love how you say you build a child, you build a team, you build an adult, you know, you teach them now you get adults that are much more willing to talk about it. But at the same time, it's just hopefully we see them going into middle school, not having to worry about what do I say? How do I approach this person? How do I ask them if they want to hang out at my house later, right? Because as they become middle that, you know, they're not gonna be like you wanna come over and play at 13 they're gonna say, hey, I want to go and hang out. I just really hope that more people can see the messages that you're trying to put out there.

JS: I mean, I'm glad that I can come in, you know, and I think you know, I've come in like with empathy with body safety, with inclusion and diversity with this small younger group of people. But if teachers are using my books in their classroom and modeling, what I'm saying as well, then that cohort of children coming through who have had these kinds of stories and books and that it's a lot more than mine out there as well, are empathetic, are compassionate, are inclusive, do embrace diversity, as they come through into teenagehood into adulthood and become parents themselves. So I feel hopeful that maybe society can move a little bit more along and you know, we are their children's first model. So you're saying how sad it is that other adults don't know how to include you in the conversation with your child. And that is model to their children. That is modeled that awkwardness and that oh, we don't know what to say to their children. And that's not good. I mean, that is not good. So let's hope particularly our teacher the very important space, they need to be open minded and they need to embrace diversity, inclusion and read these kinds of books, not just mine, all kinds of books so that we have this cohort going through that just everybody's different and that's okay.

JL: Thats what makes us beautiful, if we were all the same how boring would our life be?

JS: Yeah, I remember Isabelle saying to me, my youngest saying to me, a disability in a child is just what's normal for them. That's normality. If there's nothing abnormal about it, because it's normal, and that's hard to put into words in a way with people to understand

JL: It's very powerful, however, to realize that Teal she is beginning to see that she's different. But that doesn't mean that this isn't her normal.

JS: Yeah, that's exactly right. And, you know, my child has her friend, her normal or his normal might be, they've got red hair and freckles that's their normal, okay. Or they're not very good at running, but they're great at trumpet. That's their normal. So we just need to think about that. And my daughter Jess, who is also a writer, she's written a book called Love Your Body. Because she's, she's a very tall woman she's 6ft, and, you know, she has always people have always felt that they could comment on her body. Oh, you're so tall, you're so tall. And it wasn't good as a young woman, you know, as a teenager, but she had a message to say to young women particularly love your body. It's your body, whatever is normal is normal for you, and embrace your body for all things that it can do, rather than what it can't do. And so, yes, she has written that book.

JL: That sounds very powerful. I love that.

JS: She has every kind of person in her book, Sally, like they're or they're in a wheelchair or their lives are different or they, you know, have a big body or big breasts, to make sure in the illustrations, there are all kinds of bodies.

JL: That's wonderful. I'm so happy that you took some time to talk with us because what you're doing is hugely valuable for everybody. Every person for everybody. Exactly. This isn't just about special needs. This isn't just about parenting. This is about being a good human being and embracing our world and the diversity within it. And as you were chatting about children growing and evolving. I do believe that the children today are far more accepting than the children when I was growing up 40-plus years ago,

JS: I have great faith in the generation coming through and the kind of parenting they will do with their kids as well to have a much more diverse society. I mean, we have to, we can't go back. We just have to because there is such a colorful, amazing group of people in the world and everybody has the right to be who they want to be. And I'm always advocating for that and I think the kids coming through I'm hoping through our education systems as well. That will be really, really, you know, a goal, to understand that everyone is different than to embrace that. Yeah, it's kind of a transition period.

JL: We're transitioning. That's beautiful we are and we have to believe in that and your books are doing a beautiful. They're just paving a path for people to just step right behind. you and support you and teach and use better words and educate and all of those things. So thank you so very much for writing them and being a part of this journey that we're all on.

JS: Thank you so much.

JL: I have one final question for you. And that is what is one magical moment that you have had with a child with special needs.

JS: Okay, so it was only on FaceTime with a little boy Luca who Isabel looks after. And she and he were talking to me and he looked up at Isabel and he said I love you Isabel. And it was so special because he can't move very much he can't do much with his, he is verbal. So we were chatting away and when he said that and also his name is Luca and I've dedicated on this book. I have a fun book coming up.

JL: One of 400 that you've written, goodness me. 

JS: It's called Everyone's Invited.

JL: Oh, Everyone's invited. 

JS: And the subtitle is 'a book about inclusion, diversity, equality community empathy and celebrating us'. And I've dedicated the book to Luca and his brother. Isabell telling me about Luca and his life has really influenced how why I wrote Included and why I've got Everyone's Invited as well, but Everyone's Invited a little bit lighter. It's sort of in a rhyming kind of joy. It is about everyone being Included. 

JL: The colors are so beautiful. 

JS: Yeah, the colors are like rainbow

JL: Rainbows exactly oh I caught that. I caught that. Everyone's invited to the party. Very cool. Well, thank you so very much, Danny. And I really appreciate your time today and I encourage everyone to go to your website. We'll put all of that in the in-the-show notes. But if you'd like to give a shout-out for how people can contact you, that would be great. 

JS: Okay, so basically, we sell our books in the US through Amazon. But if you're in Australia, you can buy directly from us from the website, which is https://e2epublishing.info/ on that website, go for people in the US or the UK. There are heaps of free resources. So I put out a lot of free posters and activities and things that you can do with videos. There's one on body safety rules, a little video which they... people are always telling me is really good for kids who are tick or tick. But that's a great little video. So there are a lot of free things as well. And I'm on Instagram as well. @jayneensandersauthor and also @educate2empower

JL: Okay, thank you very, very much. We really appreciate your time and I can't wait for people to get to get their hands on your books. And funny. 

JS: Thanks, Jen. Thank you.